A lot of cards are being considered for the banlist without much thought given. There are obvious stinkers within the format that definitely deserve to be there, but I am against restricting every single card that someone doesn't like to play against. The metagame can change immensely with just a few of the strongest cards out, and who can honestly predict what will happen then? I believe that the correct approach is to ban as few cards as possible.

Bombazar and Clamp are both obvious. Bombazar is by far the strongest card in the format, while Clamp is up there and is the definition of antifun. Cloned Nightmare was very popular in Poland and it proved to be just as bad as clamp. A 40-card deck with decent draw and 4 (duh) copies of Cloned reaches a level of discard which feels way too oppressive.

Why are we restricting Clamp instead of completely shutting it down? Once in ~5 games a guy with a single clamp in his deck is going to cast it on turn 4, and the other player will be left with a crushing emptiness in his soul. I mean, it's not excessively powerful due to the massive inconsistency, but honestly, why?

The only card I would consider for restriction to 1 copy is Miraculous Plague. Lack of early mass-discard in the format leaves plenty of room for a bit slower, more mana-dependent decks, and I think that 4x Plague controls with nature excel in that category.

Restricting Bolmeteus is just silly. By the time he's on the field you either should've won already (aggro), you're about to take control of the game (combo/synergy-oriented), or you just remove him (control). I think that the most powerful evolutions (f.e. FDF, Craze), some particular wave strikers (Sapian, Merlee) and certain spells (Searing Wave, Miraculous Snare) are all much more problematic and metagame-defining the Bolmeteus, and I wouldn't restrict any of them.

And there's also Soulswap I guess. It's my vote for the second best card in TCG, but it's also an extremely fun and combo-enabling card. Restricting Soulswap would make all those fun enormous creatures that much worse.

So, in my opinion,
Ban: Bombazar, Clamp, Cloned Nightmare.
Restrict/Watchlist?: Miraculous Plague

Mr-ex777 wrote:Bolly is Bombazar or Bolmeteus Steel Dragon? Plus in OCG we have worse cards and those weren't restricted.

As if you don't know there was a spell that costed 2 mana and if you have 4 or more multicolors in your mana zone your opponent discards 3 cards from his hand of his choice. And that isn't even hit yet.

TCG is different to OCG and that's why restricting Bolmeteus wouldn't be a bad idea considering the RUB decks that many run game after game. In OCG bolmeteus is very harmless and even Bolmeteus Sapphire Dragon is nowadays only limited. In OCG Bolmeteus is rather easily countered.

Demon Wolf, Castle of Betrayal isn't effective early on, unless you combine it with either Courtney or Nyasu. So not even in OCG, there is as strong simplistic card as Cranium Clamp in TCG.

Qbius wrote:A lot of cards are being considered for the banlist without much thought given. There are obvious stinkers within the format that definitely deserve to be there, but I am against restricting every single card that someone doesn't like to play against. The metagame can change immensely with just a few of the strongest cards out, and who can honestly predict what will happen then? I believe that the correct approach is to ban as few cards as possible.

The reason for just restricting Clamp is so that people learn not to rely on it. This brings the problem of using Cloned Nightmare then especially since it benefits of every Nightmares in both players graveyard. It could get really ugly. Restricting Clamp probably helps disabling the strength of RUB decks a little. If not, then Bolmeteus might be restricted. The beauty of Bolmeteus lies behind making your opponent unable to counter it by emptying their hand and field. Miraculous Plague is nasty and I understand why you feel it should be restricted. Maybe it will be hit eventually.

I agree that as few cards as possible should be restricted or banned and I would be down with the following:
Restricted: Cloned Nightmare
Banned: Cranium Clamp, Bombazar

It's basically the same list you suggested but Cloned could be now still used if really wanted as an extra discard card. After using this list we could see if there is cards that still seem too OP, like Plague or Bolmeteus and act accordingly

Actually there are lots of decks that run lots of multiolored cards in ocg that run demon wolf. Believe me it's worse than clamp and i have whole games ruined early on by it.

The banlist looks good right now. Please remember that it's a place strictly for broken cards, and not for all very powerful cards.

Getting 4 multicolored cards in your mana zone isn't that easy task (disturbs and slows down your game) and there's only little chance you could use it when you could use clamp, so turn 3 or 4 at the latest. It could ruin your games but not as easily as Clamp. Believe me, you'd rather have Castle of Betrayal than Clamp.

What comes to broken and powerful cards, the line isn't always that clear between them. Soulswap and Corile are powerful and some could argue they are broken.

Bolmeteus doesn't deserve to be banned or restrcited, it's a card that takes a very long setup to be fully effective, much of which can be attributed to discard.

Especially Cranium Clamp seems to make it easier to use Bolmeteus. Restricting the use of Clamp would change the meta and make it more healthy.

Various DM communities have nerfed cards by changing the effect. For example in Polish DM communities, Slash Charger puts the top card of either player's deck into its owner's graveyard instead of searching a players decks for a card. This would be something similar to Bone Dance Charger in OCG but Slash Charger could be still used in deck-out decks.

Since TCG is a discontinued format, nerfing cards could be very vital. For example, Cranium Clamp could have an increased cost of 5 (like Demonic Vice) or an added negative effect, like discarding one card from your hand and then (or even, if you do), your opponent chooses and discards 2 cards from his hand. Another way of nerfing could be making Clamp to draw one card and then your opponent would choose and discard 1 card from his hand (like Brain Touch), and the only reason I don't really like that is because darkness doesn't usually have pure drawing, so I like the first suggestion better.

For example in Polish DM communities, Slash Charger puts the top card of either player's deck into its owner's graveyard instead of searching a players decks for a card.

Out of sheer curiosity, where did you get that information? Never heard of such adjustment in my life.

Malarz wrote:Out of sheer curiosity, where did you get that information? Never heard of such adjustment in my life.

It must have been other non-Polish DM community then, maybe at Kaijudo Portal or some where. Nevertheless, the fact remains, nerfing is a viable option.

The KC nerf for Clamp was pretty cool:

Name: Cranium Clamp
Type: Spell
Civilization: Darkness
Cost: 4
Rules Text: Once this turn, when one of your creatures is attacking your opponent and isn't blocked, your opponent discards two cards at random from his hand.
(This effect activates once per Cranium Clamp played, and always on the first unblocked attack. The cards are discarded before the shield is broken).

The related reasoning can be found here(old Kirricorp site): http://kirricorp.freetzi.com/kc_clamp.php

Interestingly formed effect by KirriCorp. That effect would clearly be a bit less effective than having Clamp to discard 1 card from you before discarding two of your opponent hand cards, although the result is the same hand card wise: both either lose 2 hand cards or you lose 1 hand card and your opponent looses 2 but get a replacement from shields, equaling both losing 1 hand card.

So the key arguments for this were that Cranium Clamps effect is triggered immediately and unconditionally unlike Horrid Worm, which could possibly give your opponent a hand card to replace the lost one.

I'd be willing to have Cranium Clamp as (at least for now)

Cranium Clamp wrote:Choose and discard one card from your hand and then your opponent chooses and discards 2 cards from his hand

In OCG, Jealousy Bell has this effect and is never really used and since this ability seems more effective than the KC Cranium Clamp, I would recommend going for this.

Any thoughts?

ELTP wrote:Interestingly formed effect by KirriCorp. That effect would clearly be a bit less effective than having Clamp to discard 1 card from you before discarding two of your opponent hand cards, although the result is the same hand card wise: both either lose 2 hand cards or you lose 1 hand card and your opponent looses 2 but get a replacement from shields, equaling both losing 1 hand card.

So the key arguments for this were that Cranium Clamps effect is triggered immediately and unconditionally unlike Horrid Worm, which could possibly give your opponent a hand card to replace the lost one.

I'd be willing to have Cranium Clamp as (at least for now)

Cranium Clamp wrote:Choose and discard one card from your hand and then your opponent chooses and discards 2 cards from his hand

In OCG, Jealousy Bell has this effect and is never really used and since this ability seems more effective than the KC Cranium Clamp, I would recommend going for this.

Any thoughts?

I personally think that seems pretty fair. It still does what the original card, the opponent discarding 2, does but with an added drawback,you having to discard 1, though that might anger some control players that love using that card.

Secret_Wyvern wrote:I personally think that seems pretty fair. It still does what the original card, the opponent discarding 2, does but with an added drawback,you having to discard 1, though that might anger some control players that love using that card.

It should be fair, but like you suggested, it might even be too fair. The plus side is that now, if you top decked Cranium Clamp, you could still use it to even your and your opponent's hand cards by discarding (up to) 2 of his hand cards.

So these are my recommendations, for now at least:
Cranium Clamp (DM-08 27/55)
Darkness / Spell / 4
- Discard a card. Then, your opponent discards 2 cards from his hand.
Slash Charger (DM-9 32/55)
Darkenss / Spell / 3
- You may look at the top card of either player's deck. Then, you may put the top card of that player's deck into its owner's graveyard.

I would even consider doing this but I'm not certain if this would be necessary:
Future Slash (DM-06 55/110)
- You may look at the top 2 cards of either player's deck and put them back in any order. Then, you may put up to 2 cards of that player's deck into its owner's graveyard.

What is the reasoning behind changing either Slash Charger or Future Slash? Sure, slash charger is a powerful card, but neither of them are particularly broken.

As for clamp, instead of making it very clunky I would prefer to just change its cost to 5. While we're at it, Cloned Nightmare at 4 would also probably be fine.

By the way, do you think that a 5k, no-double breaker, no-speed attacker Bombazar would still be broken?

The reasoning behind nerfing Slash Charger is the fact that you get to see your opponent's deck early on and search for his key cards. It's especially nice with Cloned Nightmare. The other thing is that it is a 3 mana Darkness charger (like Venom Charger), which itself is already very good but this is not yet game breaking. In TCG, Slash Charger isn't as harmful as it would be in OCG, but it still have great benefits.

I hear you on rising the cost of Clamp but nerfing shouldn't be done that way since the mana cost is fixed on the card, the ability is more natural to change. Also, the difference between Cranium Clamp and Demonic Vice is HUGE. Demonic Vice is pretty much unplayable, I have seen no one playing it. Nerfing should be done without altering mana cost.

I don't like Bombazar because it has that win or lose nature in it, so it would be difficult to nerf. You don't want to make it too powerful but also it should still be usable. But you are on a right track there: removing double breaker (let it be 6000, it's printed on the card), speed attacker and making it destroy all of your other creatures with power 6000 or less. Then you could take an extra turn, after of which, your opponent could take an extra turn. It could even have your opponent summon creatures from his hand for free if necessary.

Bombazar is a tricky one.

To be honest I'm more for banning Bombazar and Clamp altogether. I just wanted to suggest my changes because coming up with ideas for them seemed fun.

I still disagree with nerfing Slash Charger. Any extra changes should be kept to absolute minimum, and I don't think that Slash is overpowered. It's not Clamp, which is a card you put in every deck and cast it whenever possible because it's super strong. Slash Charger doesn't fit every deck, or every turn. When cast, it forces you to make a potentially meaningful decision. The value of information it gives you depends entirely on your skill. Quite frankly, I think it's the worst kind of card to nerf: not broken and skill-dependent. "Which card should I get rid of?", "What cards should I be worried about?", these are questions I'm all for being metaphorically asked when playing Duel Masters. "Should I cast this broken spell?" is, in most cases, a rhetorical one.

This is also why I would leave Soulswap alone. It's fun and not autopilot.

ELTP wrote:
In OCG, Jealousy Bell has this effect and is never really used and since this ability seems more effective than the KC Cranium Clamp, I would recommend going for this.

Any thoughts?

Jealousy Bell, however, is also a Shield Trigger, which makes the card slightly different.

It doesn't take that much skill to decide what card you should get rid of with Slash Charger. TCG doesn't have that many cards and it's fixed. It's more "skill based" than using Clamp but still it doesn't really require skills. You simply cast it and see what your opponent has got and what cards seem effective in general or against your deck. If your opponent doesn't run darkness (creature retrieval) or light (spell retrieval) he won't see that card again and the chances of drawing it decreases drastically. And you get mana to summon cards like Marinomancer or Merfolk next turn.

The changes should be kept at a minimum. Cranium Clamp, Cloned Nightmare and Slash Charger (especially "combined" with Nightmare but also with Cloned Spiral) are cards that I would consider nerfing or restricting. Nerfing of Bombazar could also be discussed but I think it's easiest to just leave it be banned since Duel Masters doesn't need cards like it. Interesting topic, nonetheless.

By nerfing Slash Charger so that it could still be used in deck-out decks is something I think is relevant and that other DM communities has also done. My suggestion is originally elsewhere. You could also have Slash look 2 or 3 cards from the top of either player's deck, bringing a different kind of control element in it.

nitrox wrote:Jealousy Bell, however, is also a Shield Trigger, which makes the card slightly different.

So you are suggesting that Cranium Clamp should also be Shield Trigger? I don't know if that would be necessary.

I am still bewildered as to why is Slash Charger being brought up with the likes of Clamp or Bombazar. Maybe it's because it wasn't terribly popular in my play environments, but I fail to see why it shouldn't be left as it is. It's simply a very powerful card. Those happen. Should we also change Soulswap? Or Corile? Hulcus, Bronze-Arm Tribe, Energy Stream? Miraculous Plague? Like, why Slash Charger in particular???

Slash Charger is cheap (technically it costs 2 mana with mana generation) and versatile: You can either use it to boost your Cloned spells, search cards for graveyard for retrieval or simply cherry-pick cards from your opponent's deck one by one while also seeing the content of it. One could say it's just powerful. For example with Belix you can easily re-cast Slash Charger. In many decks it's probably a bit too slow but when you have right cards in your deck, it's deadly.

Soulswap isn't really a problem in TCG since TCG doesn't have that effective big creatures and Soulswap still has the mana factor restricting choices. It's powerful but not really worth restricting/banning. Which could also be said for the rest of the cards you mentioned, except for Miraculous Plague, which I could see being restricted to one.

Qbius wrote:The banlist looks good right now. Please remember that it's a place strictly for broken cards, and not for all very powerful cards.

You're right. I think it looks good now the way it is. There only 12 TCG sets so this list should be very small to create a fair recommendation for a restriction/banlist.

I never made bad experiences with Slash Charger, so i think it could just remain on the watchlist.

This sounds like a fair/balanced nerf.

ELTP wrote:Cranium Clamp (DM-08 27/55)
Darkness / Spell / 4
- Discard a card. Then, your opponent discards 2 cards from his hand.

But i'm not quite sure if this 'Nerfing' discussion belongs here. Maybe we would need another thread for this...

Nerfing is something to think about and such cards should be listed here. I created a thread for Cranium Clamp and there it's easier to continue discussion regarding it. That discard one and your opponent discards 2 seems simple enough. It's like casting 2 Ghost Touches.

Based on the opinions now, Slash Charger should be kept untouched. So I think we are now starting to be set for our Online duels. In the coming months, we are going to organize a tournament on TCO (nitrox already got OCTGN covered) where we are going to apply the list. We even have prices for the winners! So stay tuned.

Opinions regarding the list are still much appreciated!

i personally dont feel like bolly is overpowered or anything. Sure, he burns shields and all but with the plethora of removal in TCG, i rarely see bolly lasting for more than 2 turns on the board. you'd have to control your opponent really well with tons of discard to remove all his threats before bolly really starts to shine. i only find petrova, mist rias, soulswap and bombazar to be truly overpowered in TCG. Petrova is an incredibly broken in TCG... she makes it extremely difficult to remove your opponents creatures because of the huge +4000 power they get. Being untargetable herself makes it 192837 times more frustrating to play against her because almost all removal spells are rendered useless. Mist rias just punishes your opponent SO much if he doesnt remove her in the next turn. She is extremely powerful against decks that do not run fire because you have to waste a terror pit on her most of the time. soulswap is just plain broken... summon bolmeteus for 3 mana? substitute your opponents tanzanyte for an aqua guard? AND its a shield trigger on top of that?? just insane. and bombazar just goes without saying...

It's weird how excellent Petrova is and yet he doesn't feel overpowered to me. I don't know exactly why, maybe it's similar reason why I don't see Soulswap being OP.

Bolmeteus is safe from the list, at least for now.

tannyboy2 wrote:i personally dont feel like bolly is overpowered or anything. Sure, he burns shields and all but with the plethora of removal in TCG, i rarely see bolly lasting for more than 2 turns on the board. you'd have to control your opponent really well with tons of discard to remove all his threats before bolly really starts to shine. i only find petrova, mist rias, soulswap and bombazar to be truly overpowered in TCG. Petrova is an incredibly broken in TCG... she makes it extremely difficult to remove your opponents creatures because of the huge +4000 power they get. Being untargetable herself makes it 192837 times more frustrating to play against her because almost all removal spells are rendered useless. Mist rias just punishes your opponent SO much if he doesnt remove her in the next turn. She is extremely powerful against decks that do not run fire because you have to waste a terror pit on her most of the time. soulswap is just plain broken... summon bolmeteus for 3 mana? substitute your opponents tanzanyte for an aqua guard? AND its a shield trigger on top of that?? just insane. and bombazar just goes without saying...

dude 2 turns of bolly lasting on the board is more than enough ... if it hits the field and survives 1-2 turns the next turn apoc,blizzard or plague will remove your blockers.

still, i agree that it isnt broken.

petrova isnt "incredibly broken" at all. it CAN be broken yes. if you dont prepare against it. but thats your fault.  
(i once won a match 2:0 against a phal control player.  because he had neither melnia nor bazagazeal against my ailzonius. the match was very boring for me.)

if you ignore the matchup against petrova or ailzonius because you want a more consitent deck, then thats a risk you are willing to take, right?

(its like when players make their control matchups stronger by running fewer blockers and trigger amounts for mroe control elements. of yourse youll have problems against rush or aggro then)

light has holy awe and your own petrovas as well. fire has the most answers. and darkness has slime veil, photocide etc. some cards are not that staple-ish but still good. and worth it to avoid getting stomped by petrova. your choice.

also you dont need to beat petrova always. you can bait it into attacking as well. you can pressure the opp.  (if you have no answers) by going more aggro. or you can try to control the petrova player. petrova doesnt generate any card advantage when summoned. it just stays there for 5 mana at first. decks dont auto l lose when they have no answers to it.

its would mean that mono water aggro would lose to it always.
or other aggro decks and controls. this isnt the case.

think about this: if petrova were  incredibly broken, then petrova decks would eb the best decks in all metas. the price for petrova would be ridiculously high because its a dm09 card.

this isnt the case. why? because they are a lot of reasons for it some i didnt write as well.

i have won a lot of games against petrova without removing it. (i controlled the petrova player and forced him to sacrifice his petrova against my small army.) you can win with "indirect counetrs " as well.

furthermore dont forget that petrovas effect is double sided.

i dont know how long you have been playing but petrova is in no way as broken or even broken
as you claim it to be.

Soulswap: it can be killed by melnia + rumble gate, melnia + kolon or just a death smoek as well. all cost just 1 mana more.

souslwap is not broken in the tcg.

its super good card, yes.

there  ARE be scenarios where it can be broken.
for example turn 6 in a GRUB control: swap out bolly for 2 mana and use the remaining 4 for clamp. but thats a combo. tcg doesnt ahve these ultra crazy CIP effects that can be abused fo it.
IMO the most lethal thing you can do is: mana accelerate with bronze and  windaye in WDF aggro and then swap twinc annon out early. thats heavy hitting and not the scenearios you described.

i dont see how you dont mention holy awe, when it CAN be the most unfair card in the game. (apart from bombazar)

look at my previous posts in the thread i stated my opinion about awe.

Mist Rias: mist rias can be game winning indeed. but it has a lot of of counters though.

non fire counetrs: death smoke, kolon, awe, soulswap etc.

if my opp dropped rias turn 5 that palyer mostly had just 2-3 cards in hand, which i clamped next turn
then my opp just drew 1 more creature.

mostly my opp. just plays 1-2 creatures after a rias survives,  when a marino mancer or merfolk would have (potentially) drawn 3 as well.

though rias stalls that player and needs to be removed later, which aslo has is super strong.

i know you did say non fire removal but think about volcano charger (the best counetr IMO)
or bliiazrd of spears.

Duel Masters is a lot about rock, paper, scissors scenarios.

decks and almost broken cards get balanced by other cards/decktypes out.

i have won a lot of games with rias surviving 1-2 turns.

if you have no answer: go all in aggro and then try a lost soul.

i dont see how you come to these conclusions, but i strongly reccomend trying "different" metas out.